Comments on: The Incredibles, and Lazy Game Design http://www.vectorstorm.org/2009/02/08/the-incredibles-and-lazy-game-design/ Creating games, one brightly glowing line at a time. Fri, 05 Mar 2010 22:59:49 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Fun Link Friday | Crackerjack Games Blog http://www.vectorstorm.org/2009/02/08/the-incredibles-and-lazy-game-design/comment-page-1/#comment-799 Fun Link Friday | Crackerjack Games Blog Fri, 13 Feb 2009 23:04:35 +0000 http://www.vectorstorm.org/?p=429#comment-799 [...] The Incredibles, and Lazy Game Design - or comparing simple narrative devices in movies with similar ideas in games. [...] [...] The Incredibles, and Lazy Game Design – or comparing simple narrative devices in movies with similar ideas in games. [...]

]]> By: Jake Birkett http://www.vectorstorm.org/2009/02/08/the-incredibles-and-lazy-game-design/comment-page-1/#comment-798 Jake Birkett Fri, 13 Feb 2009 22:14:20 +0000 http://www.vectorstorm.org/?p=429#comment-798 Lol @ the bafmodads cartoon. I actually completed that game with my kids, and yes there was a lot of stuff to collect including those stupidly named things. Lol @ the bafmodads cartoon. I actually completed that game with my kids, and yes there was a lot of stuff to collect including those stupidly named things.

]]> By: Fun Link Friday » Games News and Reviews » Binary Joy http://www.vectorstorm.org/2009/02/08/the-incredibles-and-lazy-game-design/comment-page-1/#comment-797 Fun Link Friday » Games News and Reviews » Binary Joy Fri, 13 Feb 2009 22:07:00 +0000 http://www.vectorstorm.org/?p=429#comment-797 [...] The Incredibles, and Lazy Game Design - or comparing simple narrative devices in movies with similar ideas in games. [...] [...] The Incredibles, and Lazy Game Design – or comparing simple narrative devices in movies with similar ideas in games. [...]

]]> By: Liam http://www.vectorstorm.org/2009/02/08/the-incredibles-and-lazy-game-design/comment-page-1/#comment-796 Liam Tue, 10 Feb 2009 00:06:56 +0000 http://www.vectorstorm.org/?p=429#comment-796 It seems to me that there is a definite difference between using a shorthand to let you "get to the good stuff faster" as with The Incredibles, and "making it take longer". For me, at least, the first is a given boon; we are short-handing the stuff that would get in the way of the fun, so we can foreground the fun itself. The second isn't necessarily a bad thing, if it introduces something which is in itself rewarding, but it has to work for its money. For me, Prince of Persia is fine and fun in its current form. I like the back and forth of trying to see how I can get some more glowing things, and then exploring a new area. But I can imagine a situation where insufficient content was given for me to explore with a given volume of glowies and I felt restricted by the arbitrary limit. At that point I think dark thoughts. Evil thoughts. It seems to me we use a lot of the former sort of shorthand in game design, and it is mostly good, because it gets us up and running faster as players. The reasons for using the second sort of shorthand are more varied, and sometimes people get themselves in trouble with it. It seems to me that there is a definite difference between using a shorthand to let you “get to the good stuff faster” as with The Incredibles, and “making it take longer”.

For me, at least, the first is a given boon; we are short-handing the stuff that would get in the way of the fun, so we can foreground the fun itself.

The second isn’t necessarily a bad thing, if it introduces something which is in itself rewarding, but it has to work for its money.

For me, Prince of Persia is fine and fun in its current form. I like the back and forth of trying to see how I can get some more glowing things, and then exploring a new area. But I can imagine a situation where insufficient content was given for me to explore with a given volume of glowies and I felt restricted by the arbitrary limit. At that point I think dark thoughts. Evil thoughts.

It seems to me we use a lot of the former sort of shorthand in game design, and it is mostly good, because it gets us up and running faster as players. The reasons for using the second sort of shorthand are more varied, and sometimes people get themselves in trouble with it.

]]> By: trevor http://www.vectorstorm.org/2009/02/08/the-incredibles-and-lazy-game-design/comment-page-1/#comment-795 trevor Mon, 09 Feb 2009 12:12:02 +0000 http://www.vectorstorm.org/?p=429#comment-795 I do agree that replaying through levels is important, and will continue to be important for as long as game makers are trying to extend the playtime of their games. I just wonder whether the particular ways that they're doing it is lazy.. and if so, whether being lazy is bad. Dan, you mentioned Left 4 Dead. Left 4 Dead has a neat adaptive difficulty level and "AI Director" approach, which is trying to make the game replayable in an entirely different manner; I'm certainly not casting stones at that. But if Left 4 Dead had tried to get you to replay its levels by putting a hundred glowing balls in each level, and only let you play the next level when you'd collected, say, sixty from the previous level.. would that be worse? Or if it had achievements (which it does on the XBox 360, at least), would that have been an acceptable substitute for the varying enemies and difficulty, and been as effective at getting you to replay it? And if it was just as effective, then does it matter that 'achievements' have been done to death, as long as they succeeded at getting you to play the game for longer than you would have, otherwise? I do agree that replaying through levels is important, and will continue to be important for as long as game makers are trying to extend the playtime of their games. I just wonder whether the particular ways that they’re doing it is lazy.. and if so, whether being lazy is bad.

Dan, you mentioned Left 4 Dead. Left 4 Dead has a neat adaptive difficulty level and “AI Director” approach, which is trying to make the game replayable in an entirely different manner; I’m certainly not casting stones at that. But if Left 4 Dead had tried to get you to replay its levels by putting a hundred glowing balls in each level, and only let you play the next level when you’d collected, say, sixty from the previous level.. would that be worse?

Or if it had achievements (which it does on the XBox 360, at least), would that have been an acceptable substitute for the varying enemies and difficulty, and been as effective at getting you to replay it? And if it was just as effective, then does it matter that ‘achievements’ have been done to death, as long as they succeeded at getting you to play the game for longer than you would have, otherwise?

]]> By: Dan Haraj http://www.vectorstorm.org/2009/02/08/the-incredibles-and-lazy-game-design/comment-page-1/#comment-794 Dan Haraj Mon, 09 Feb 2009 02:38:02 +0000 http://www.vectorstorm.org/?p=429#comment-794 I think that forcing the player to go back and replay old content is perfectly fine if the content is rich enough. Look at Left 4 Dead for example. There are only 4 short campaigns, but each one has so much artistic detail and enough easter eggs that playing them over and over again is very rewarding. If I go back to an older level and see new things, or play it at a different pace and atmosphere than the last time, it's all the better. I really enjoy games that have art content that is worth looking at in detail. I do not mind forced replay when it is around because it just gives me more chances to appreciate the craftsmanship of the game. I think that forcing the player to go back and replay old content is perfectly fine if the content is rich enough. Look at Left 4 Dead for example. There are only 4 short campaigns, but each one has so much artistic detail and enough easter eggs that playing them over and over again is very rewarding.

If I go back to an older level and see new things, or play it at a different pace and atmosphere than the last time, it’s all the better. I really enjoy games that have art content that is worth looking at in detail. I do not mind forced replay when it is around because it just gives me more chances to appreciate the craftsmanship of the game.

]]> By: John Murphy http://www.vectorstorm.org/2009/02/08/the-incredibles-and-lazy-game-design/comment-page-1/#comment-793 John Murphy Sun, 08 Feb 2009 17:46:52 +0000 http://www.vectorstorm.org/?p=429#comment-793 In my mind I tend to divide these game-lengthening tricks into two camps: optional and required. Badges are optional, since I can play through while completely ignoring them. Easter eggs are the much-older version of this trick, to the point of being almost obligatory in some genres. (Consider how many interactive fiction games don't have a ready response to the command, 'xyzzy') The required ones are along the lines of those stars, useless little tasks you need to perform to move on to the next level. You could even add "high-level boss fights" to this category, as they tend to require grinding. In my mind, there's no harm to the former and lots of harm to the latter. Not being a college student anymore, I don't value length in games anymore, and I resent cheap tricks to make the game longer. (If anything, I'd pay more for a shorter game than a longer game these days, since I have so little time to play!) In my mind I tend to divide these game-lengthening tricks into two camps: optional and required. Badges are optional, since I can play through while completely ignoring them. Easter eggs are the much-older version of this trick, to the point of being almost obligatory in some genres. (Consider how many interactive fiction games don’t have a ready response to the command, ‘xyzzy’)

The required ones are along the lines of those stars, useless little tasks you need to perform to move on to the next level. You could even add “high-level boss fights” to this category, as they tend to require grinding.

In my mind, there’s no harm to the former and lots of harm to the latter. Not being a college student anymore, I don’t value length in games anymore, and I resent cheap tricks to make the game longer. (If anything, I’d pay more for a shorter game than a longer game these days, since I have so little time to play!)

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